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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning and Zoning Commission-Minutes-10/9/2000 Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 1 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 The regular meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order by Chairman Hart at 7:00 P.M. on October 9, 2000. Roll Call: Present: Jo Ann Gasper, Luann Edwards, Joe Hocutt, Mark Hollis, Jeffrey Wall, Bryan Hill, Tom Hart Barry LeBaron, Clayton Husband, Tom Niederauer, Jan Levy, Mike Soab Staff: Invocation: The invocation was given by Commissioner Hollis. Approval of Minutes: September 25, 2000 Commissioner Hocutt moved to approve the minutes as submitted. Commissioner Wall seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None 1. PUBLIC HEARING - A Special Use Permit for a carport requested by Steve Pence for Keith & Betsy Luttrell, on Lot 11, Block 3, Western Trails Addition Section 2 located at 7420 Overland Trail. Case S-00-071 Clayton husband presented the case to the Commission. He informed the Commission that it meets all of the existing criteria and technical aspects for a carport. Jan Levy informed the Commissioners that she received a call from the neighbor across the street, Wesley Eaves, at 7409 Overland Trail. He said that he could not be at the meeting and had no objections to the carport. Chairman Hart opened the public hearing. Steve Pence was present to represent the case. There being no one else present wishing to speak, the public hearing was closed. Commissioner Gasper to recommend approval of the special use permit. Commissioner Hollis seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None 2. TABLED ITEM - A Zoning Change requested by David Bagwell, from AG to PUD-R (planned unit development-residential on 54.93 acres located on a portion of Bluebonnet Hills on Hall Johnson Road - Broughton. Case Z-OO-064 Barry LeBaron updated the Commission and informed them of the changes in the zoning exhibit. Commissioner Edwards asked if staff was opposed to eliminating the northern access and staff responded that Mr. Bagwell kept an emergency access. Mr. LeBaron said that in a gated Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 2 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 community you balance idea that smaller streets only impact those houses. He said that you wouldn't want to do that as a normal routine thing around the community because you wouldn't want a 21' street that provides access from one side of the community to the other side of the community. He said that in a gated community it only affects the houses abutting on the narrow street. He said that everything proposed is an idea and it is necessarily not a bad ides. He said that it has been proven successful in some other places around the country and if it were to be approved and didn't work out, the HOA could always come back and put the extra pavement in there and bring it up to the current two way standards. Commissioner Gasper asked if the Fire Chief has reviewed the plan and what are his comments regarding safety.. Mr. LeBaron responded that the Fire Chief still wants the 31' normal street section through the area. Hocutt asked about the northern emergency access and if the Fire Chief had any concerns. Fire Chief Johnston said that he has concerns about street width as the code does not allow it. He said that with the dept of the blocks that have 21' street this plan is better because the depth has been shortened. He said that his main concern is the emergency access. He said that we continue to build subdivisions with the one main entrance in and with their attempt to separate the entrance, is an attempt to go along with the rules changes in the near future. Chief Johnston said that depending on the size of the subdivision, if there is a large incident inside and can't get to the back of the subdivision, the emergency access is needed. He said that they would recommend an emergency access easement for sure and it is his understanding that Mr. Bagwell is willing to do that. Commissioner Hocutt said that he asked about response time at the last meeting if the fire department had to come from the north rather than the south entrance. How many homes will be impacted with fire trucks responding to homes to the north like in Ross Downs by being able to cut through this subdivision with a full open street and not an emergency access. Chief Johnston responded that it would be much quicker to all homes to the north. He said that they normally take Pool Road or Highway 26 and that is a very large section of the City. Commissioner Gasper said that the bubbles have been pulled back to 80' and she asked staff what effect will that have with the lights shining into the adjacent homes. Barry LeBaron said that the thing to consider is that the backs of these lots in many respects have an existing privacy fence. He said that we have not defined whether or not they have a gated section or a fenced section at the end of each one of these cul-de-sacs and they could look at that. He said that another way to prevent the lights landscaping could be put into the green area. He said that the green area has been pulled back either 45' to 50' from the east side of the development. Commissioner Gasper asked how far do low beams normally travel. Barry LeBaron responded that he thought possibly 150 - 200 feet. Commissioner Gasper said that of course high beams will be greater and in absence of any other modifications, there will be light pollution in the back yards of the current residents. Commissioner Hill asked how many lots there were on the prior application. Barry LeBaron said that the prior exhibit had 83 and they reduced it to 82. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 3 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Gasper said that there was a formal protest from the neighbors and has that been withdrawn or does it still stand. Mr. LeBaron said that it still stands. Commissioner Hollis said that since the property immediately to the west is privately owned land and could be developed at some point in the future, he notices that in Shalimar one of the side streets is a stub out. He asked if it would be wise to do something like that in the northern loop streets to perhaps satisfy the need for a future second entrance. Mr. LeBaron said that it depends on if you believe that Bluebonnet will ever sell other land in the future. He said that this is to be a gated development and a stub out will forever end up looking like a place provided for parked vehicles. Commissioner Hocutt said that at the last meeting he requested an actual survey of trees and plot of trees to the north to look at the impact of the trees. Barry LeBaron said that when they looked at the aerial photographs there were only a few isolated trees on this property and the density is to the west off the site of the property. Commissioner Hocutt asked if the staff get with Bob Moore Sports Center to keep golf balls from hitting the houses and the effect of the bright lights. Barry LeBaron said that it is incumbent upon the commercial to react to the concerns and complaints of the citizens. He said that our regulations always require the commercial to make sure that they don't shine or put glare into people's yards. He said that it may be that he may have to adjust his lighting accordingly. Commissioner Edwards asked that since he's been there a very long time, if we have the same compelling reason to make him make changes. Mr. LeBaron responded that lighting is not something that you would get a vested right in zoning. He said that his right to use the property does not give him the right to continuing the glare on the adjacent properties. He said that as far a hitting the golf balls, the liability is in the person who hits the golf ball and it could be that he may have to increase his netting. He said that it could very well be that golf balls are currently going off his property and there is no one there to complain about it. Commissioner Hill said that as he tries to piece together, the 2 ~ pages of special conditions he asked how do they overlay with our City Codes. He asked if they need to address each one of them in order to move forward. Chairman Hart asked the Commission if they want to take the item off the table. Commissioner Hocutt asked if they take it off the table tonight can they re-table. He said that he would like to allow the developer to speak, but he hates to keep tabling the case because of the opposition of homeowners, they have to come back to the meetings every other Monday. He said that is a roll the Commissioners have taken on, not the homeowners. Commissioner Gasper asked if they take it off the table and allow the applicant to speak, are they opening another public hearing. Chairman Hart said that they have already held a public hearing and they could open it back up for additional input from the public. Commissioner Gasper asked if they can place a time limit on the developer. Chairman Hart said that the current rules that they are operating on do not place a time limit on the applicant and she moved to suspend the rules to put a 10 minute time limit on the applicant if it is taken off the table. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 4 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Wall moved to remove the case from the table. Commissioner Hill seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None Gasper moved to suspend the rule and limit the discussion by the developer to 20 min. Commissioner Wall seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None David Bagwell, 8222 Douglas Ave., Dallas, TX., was present to represent the case. Commissioner Edwards said that she has concerns with number of homes in the area and the elimination of the emergency access to nothing at all. She said that traffic wise she is uncomfortable with having no communication both ways. Mr. Bagwell said that the lack of and emergency access is an oversight and there will be one there at the intersection of Sanders and Wyatt. He said that the concept with the single access and a gated secondary access the popularity is demonstrated by the number of them in town and some of them are larger. He said that a portion of the public would like to live in them and they are proposing to appeal to that segment. He said that as to the number of units, there are a number in town with more lots. He said that in terms of if it were ever necessary to use the emergency access, when the missing link on Sanders is added, it will be a shorter response time for the fire department to get to the second emergency access than to a number of primary entrances in a number of other subdivisions in town. Mr. Bagwell said that he understands that the fire dept. has never had to use a secondary access. Commissioner Edwards said her primary concern is with the location. She said that the response times are slower because the trucks always go to the primary entrance, just because the secondary access is always the second choice. Mr. Bagwell said that it would be a unique event that the fire department would ever be blocked within the subdivision and they could come out and use the secondary entrance faster than getting to some other areas of town. Commissioner Edwards said that her concerns are not just about fire trucks, but getting citizens through the subdivision both ways. Mr. Bagwell said that they are not volunteering to allow traffic to travel through the subdivision. He said that he believes that the people to the north who oppose their plan, actually want to see the secondary access blocked off to eliminate cars coming through their subdivisions. He said that their plan is for a subdivision that is safe, is a workable subdivision, and is gated. Commissioner Gasper asked if the developer is still proposing 5 inch concrete. Mr. Bagwell responded that the issue can also be reduced to science. He had the geotechnical engineer who did the design for the runways at Alliance Airport. He told him that there are less expensive and better quality streets using the 5 inch technology. Mr. Bagwell said that it would save them significant money and the financial gain is to be put in amenities. Commissioner Gasper said that she also talked to an engineer and the information he provided her stated that the more concrete provided the better. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 5 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Edwards asked if Mr. Bagwell would still be interested in pursuing the zoning change without the attachment of the special conditions. Mr. Bagwell said that he understands that P&Z can recommend approval or denial, but if they recommend approval, they can include what changes they believe need to be changed. He said that it would depend upon the kind of changes they want, but he can't think of one special condition they would want to trade. He said that in regards to the thickness of the street, he is not an expert, but it could be true that the thicker the better. He said that he wondered if Commissioner Gasper's figures are correct as he thought that all of the engineers agreed, and if they are wrong, that is one of the conditions that they would be willing to work on. He said that there is such a financial difference in the two that they would like to have the money back to do the kinds of things that they do to make the streets capable and beautify the property. Commissioner Gasper said that there is another provision that is very troubling to her and that is not the developer is not assuming responsibility for any off site drainage problems which he may be causing to adjacent neighbors. Mr. Bagwell said that they don't say that, they say that they are not responsible for improvements off site. He said that what the intend to say is there are things that none of them foresaw and the community wants them to fix like insufficient things off site. He said that the community wants the developer to shoulder that burden. He said that in the past, the people approving the subdivision asked staff what is broken off site and it behooves everyone to identify that now. He said that as a practical matter, they don't think that there is anything broken off site. He said that it was suggested at the last meeting that they should be responsible for doing something to the swale that is on four lots of Highland Meadows and should not be their responsibility. Commissioner Gasper said that it is her understanding that the drainage that is currently there works well for the people who are there. She said that when he adds streets and houses, rooftops and hard surfaces, he will significantly increase the amount of runoff that is leaving his property and going into the drainage that is on somebody else's property. Mr. Bagwell said that he does not increase the drainage, but what happens under Colleyville's ordinances, they are required to retain on site, any runoff that is the increase over the natural condition of the property. He said that the same quantity of water is allowed to pass the site, but it arrives faster because of the hard surfaces. Mr. Bagwell said that they proposed they will not be required to fix anything that doesn't work offsite, but will not be allowed to create a problem off site. They wouldn't get the engineering plans approved otherwise. He said that they are not asking for permission to violate the City Code. Commissioner Hocutt asked Mr. Bagwell if there was a variance for the thickness of concrete that save dollars, how many dollars would that be. David Bagwell responded that he could not tell them, but they would put it all into landscaping and beautification of the site. He said that his theory is that if you look around Colleyville, the ones people admire beautiful developments the City will get improvements to site as good as Land Dev. Code calls for. Commissioner Hocutt said that per the last meeting, Mr. Bagwell mentioned a town meeting to talk with the opposition. He asked if Mr. Bagwell has incorporated all of the concerns into the new proposal. Mr. Bagwell said that he heard to get together with the neighbors. He said that he has placed phone calls and tried to reach people and it is represented to the extent that they can in the plan. Commissioner Gasper asked Mr. Bagwell how many neighbors has he actually spoken with. He responded that maybe 8 or 9. He said that they tried to call everybody how spoke, he did not get to additional people who signed the petition. He said that the plan is a little bit different than what Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 6 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 it seems to be and it takes time to work out all of the changes. He said that he did take a plan to Brenda Grogan and talked to her. Commissioner Hill acknowledged that Mr. Bagwell has complicated issues and he received information tonight that he did not have over the weekend to review. He said that his was surprised that it came back so quickly, but maybe more time should be given to allow the people who are opposing time to review the plan as indicated in a number of the letters received tonight. Mr. Bagwell said that he objects to that as there is no shoving at all here and the Commissioners know full well that they don't have to take it off the table or take action. He said that he rejects the notion that they are trying to shove anything and shoving is not what is happening. He said that he is merely an applicant that is trying to conduct his business and if they don't want a development here, he understands it. He said that from the beginning he has recognized that people who live next to the cemetery would have expected it to remain that way, and they are surprised. He said that he is just a developer and is not shoving anything and is bringing ideas. He said that when those kinds of things are said to him, he wants to take exception to it. He said that it shocks him to bring in a plan on property that is for sale and the cemetery has the right to sell for some use beside agriculture. He said that they are a proven developer in town and they brought in a plan and are treated pretty rudely and the community ought to ask themselves why should they be rude to someone who is bringing a good idea in. He said that it is one thing to say no thank you, cut he does not act especially well to some of the things that are said about them and about their motivations. He said that he is going to defend himself for doing quality work and as somebody who is under the law to bring in an application. Commissioner Wall said that they can all agree to be nice to one another, but Mr. Bagwell can understand that this being his line of work, there are homeowners who will object to wherever he builds and bring their emotions to the meeting. He said that the P&Z will give him every opportunity to speak and they are required to. He said that if they used the wrong term they are not trying to take umbrage with what he does or his presentation. He said that they will back off and will ask Mr. Bagwell to do the same thing and they will conduct business in an orderly and proper manner. He said that they would appreciate all sides doing it the way it's supposed to be done. Commissioner Wall asked Mr. Bagwell if he thinks that down the line he would be able to meet with the neighbors and resolve any of their problems or is this the way it will be. He said that he asks the question with his perception being that this is not going to change. Mr. Bagwell responded that his sense is that probably there are opponents that there is nothing they can do to satisfy because they don't want the property developed. He said that if you accept them out of the question, that they will be happy to meet with them, and maybe they can accept development if they better understand what the developer is trying to do. He said that as you reduce the quality or the quantity of your residential units, economically it has an impact. He said that they lost $130,000 by losing a lot and as you reduces the quantity and quality of the residential units and pick up costs, you will end up with less to make it financially viable. He said that at some point he may have to say that he can't figure out how to take the plan further and if that is perceived as not being able to work with people, he is happy to look at different ways to try to resolve problems. Mr. Bagwell said that he thinks this is the process he is in. He said that the solution to headlights in back yards can be resolved by adding berms with landscaping to eliminated traffic lights. He said that the amount of traffic at the end of a cul-de-sac is significantly Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 7 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 lower especially in a gated community. Commissioner Wall asked Mr. Bagwell if the Commission were to approve the case without the development standards, would he not be interested. Mr. Bagwell responded he couldn't tell them which standard is placed in lightly and everyone of them is meaningful. He said that the one on staff processing time is because they are suffering a thousand deaths on their Westmont development with the drawn out approval process they have gone through with the City engineering staff. He said that they are asking for the City engineering staff look at the plans and approve the engineering plans and require them to build according to those approved plans and not change things. He said that he has tens of thousands of dollars in their Westmont development that came up after the engineering staff approved the plans and he can't afford to do that. He said that with that example, he couldn't give that standard up. Commissioner Gasper told Mr. Bagwell he had stated earlier in the meeting that as you build a development, some issues come up that you don't realize are there until you get to a certain point and then you can change them. She asked him if that is correct and now she is hearing him say that we can't make changes when they find out problems. Mr. Bagwell said that he did not recall what she is actually referring to. He said that he thinks there is a contradiction in his mind and he does not mean to contradict himself. Commissioner Edwards said that she is getting the sense that none of them are comfortable with the special conditions. She said that maybe one of the things they could do is poll the Commission if they want to table the case to give Mr. Bagwell a couple of weeks to think about if he could eliminate the conditions and just go by City standards. Commissioner Wall said that if the Commission would pass the request without the standards, the exceptions to the Code could still be requested at a future point. Mr. Bagwell said that the City Council could either accept or not accept their recommendation. Commissioner Gasper said that she would not like to see them lay everything off onto the City Council as she thinks that they are obligated to make judgements and recommendations. Commissioner Hill said that he agrees and just the sheer number of going through each special condition one by one is a little daunting too. He said that he did not know of any other way to do it. Commissioner Hill said that for instance on the point Mr. Bagwell made, it sounds as if he was asking for preferential treatment over every other developer in town. He said that in regards to if Mr. Bagwell doesn't get specific exceptions, he has to deal with what is causing him a thousand deaths in his other development. He asked Mr. Bagwell why he should get preferential treatment for his company as opposed to others, if it is a slow City process and a flawed one. Mr. Bagwell said that it has gotten so bad that he's come forward and said that it can be cured if the City will agree to his proposal. He said that the City asks him for commitments and he is asking the City to make commitments back to him. He said that what they've proposed in terms of how soon his plans will be approved and he would be held to no other standard other than the Colleyville Land Development Code and his approved engineering plans is imminently reasonable. He said that is not the way it works with the engineering staff today. Mr. Bagwell said that the Commission can say that he is asking for preferential treatment, but his is asking for what he thinks is reasonable treatment. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 8 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Hill said that if he hears that there is a serious flaw of that type, he would rather try to address it on a city wide basis with all of the developers so they can get back on even footing rather than to give one preferential treatment over another. He said that it seems like everyone is suffering if what Mr. Bagwell has said is true and he's not doubting that. Mr. Bagwell responded that it could be that they would say that there is an issue here and it is so significant that the developers come forward and ask for reasonable treatment here. Mr. Bagwell said that they've picked what they think are reasonable periods of time for approval of their engineering plans, but it could be that the engineering staff would say that that is not reasonable. He said that there may be a leadership roll just by asking the questions. Commissioner Hocutt said that he did not understand why it would take additional time when you have the rules in front of you and then if you follow the rules. Mr. Bagwell said that in fairness to the engineering staff, they're not here to tell you if the developer did a sloppy job the developer did and what they have to go through with him. Commissioner Hocutt asked why they would say that. Mr. Bagwell said that it wouldn't be him personally. Commissioner Hocutt said that if Mr. Bagwell was given the rules to develop by and he followed them and if the engineering staff is responding that way, he would agree with Commissioner Hill. He said that that is something that needs to be resolved at a City level so that more developers will come and develop based on the codes that the City has set forth. Commissioner Hill said that he is concerned about painting the City staff into a box that is difficult for them to achieve. Mr. Bagwell said that he wanted to give them an example. He said that he got a voice mail on Friday saying that three people from the engineering staff would meet them on Monday at 8:30 a.m. at the Westmont site and none of them showed up. He said that he had equipment out there running to do the work that he was told they needed to do to fix what they thought needed to be fixed. He said that they built a swale beside a trail that they were required to build for the benefit of the community to handle drainage because John McCain Road cannot accept the water. He said that they built it right and built the trail nest to it and Tri County Electric later and moved their poles and messed up the swale. He said that it now holds water. He said that the staff told him that he had to fix it. He asked staff to please meet him out there and show him how they want it done and they will do it how the City wants it. He said that one person's child was sick, he didn't know what happened to another person, and another person was not told that the meeting was to be held. Mr. Bagwell said that another example was that they were told they needed to re- grade McDonwell School Road to carry water into the drainage area. He said that they have looked at it, looked at it, and looked at it and none of them can figure out what staff is talking about and that is why they wanted staff there today to look at it. He said that consequence for him to not get staff's requested work done is that he can't get building permits. Mr. Bagwell said that he is trying to get something he can't figure out personally and his engineers can't figure it out, nor can the excavation contractor. He said that they ask staff to meet them there, they don't meet them there, and the consequences fall back on him and they can't get building permits. Mr. Bagwell said that when he takes on a piece of property like this and tries to commit to extraordinarily high quality for the city, it seems like a reasonable to ask in the standards, a commitment be made that they will do that for him. Mr. Bagwell said that a lot of staff time is going into the refurbishing Hall Johnson Road but his company is paying a price it because they Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 9 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 can't get attention on their job. Mr. Bagwell said that the meeting today was in order for them to correct some things that they have not done correctly and also some things that had been done to them by Tri County, but he was required to fix. Commissioner Edwards said that even if that condition was included, it couldn't be enforced. She said that it would be nice to have it for him to sight, but it probably wouldn't do him any good. Mr. Bagwell said that when the staff gives him deadlines and tell him that if he doesn't get it done they will shut him down or they can't get building permits or they will fine him $200 a day. He said that it would be nice if there was a little bit of balance to that where they could get somebody from staff out to help them accomplish what they are requiring. Mr. Bagwell said that he is not unique in the development community in talking about this issue. He said that he had a contractor tell him last week that he put an extra $40,000 in his bid for the Westmont job because of the extra stuff that you have to do in Colleyville that you don't have to do in other communities. Edwards said that these are things that need to be up to the City Council. Commissioner Hill said that he is not disputing anything that Mr. Bagwell is saying, but he wonders if they are the right body to create exceptions for him to these specific city problems. Chairman Hart said that does not believe that it falls under anything the Commission does. Chairman Hart polled the Commissioners about special conditions and he would like to give Mr. Bagwell and the rest of them an idea about where they stand on the issue. He said that the pole is if they recommend approval with the inclusion of Mr. Bagwell's special conditions. Commissioner Hill said that he would not be inclined to approve the case without going over each condition one by one in order to understand the implications of each. He said that his is mindful of the difficulty of the property, but he has had a problem from the beginning about the density. He said that he understands that Mr. Bagwell has lost $130,000 dollars and his response is to lower the purchase price of the property from the cemetery. Commissioner Wall said that without hearing city staff give a thumbs up to each and every one of the conditions, since they are the experts, he would not be incline to approve with them attached in total. Commissioner Hollis said that in addition to the issue of the 21' streets, he also has a problem with the number of conditions and would be inclined to either vote no or table the item at this time. Commissioner Hocutt said that he is not inclined to approve unless the Land Development Code was followed. Commissioner Edwards said that she has already stated that she is comfortable with what they have in the City ordinances and they are very sufficient and good. She said that she is really concerned about a lot of special conditions and she would have to go over them one by one. She said that she feels that staff guidance would be crucial. Commissioner Gasper said that she would not be able to be in favor the zoning change with all of the conditions that are presently there. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutee - October 9, 2000 ........ '" H - It",.,.."." ON 'IOl8e/OO 0".',,,,,_" H_" ..Id that h. would eoho wh.t Commi..ioner G..per i. saying. He said that there are so many there that they would have to go over them one by one and check them out. Commissioner Edwards said that they could take action immediately or they can table the case again arJd see if the developer can come any closer than what they want to look at. Commissioner Gasper asked how may times the proposal has been tabled. She was told that this proposaJ has been tabled one time because she has concerns about continuing to table items. Commissioner Wall recommended that he believes tabling the case is the correct way to go as it allows the developer an opportunity to work with the citizens, and the staff and then the staff can give clear guidance one by one. Commissioner Wall said that he is hearing the developer saying that the special conditions are his Bible, what he lives by, where his profit is and he needs them and wants them. He said that he does not believe that this is the time to go through the process because it will take several hours and there will be much discussion. Commissioner asked that staff try to guide the Commission by summarizing the conditions. Chairman Hart said that staff's position was to deny the request because of technical noncompliance with the Land Development Code. Commissioner Wall said that that comment does not specify which items don't comply and they need that information. He said that if they have problems, staff needs to resolve them with the developer and if there can't be an agreement, the Commission needs to know it item by item. , Commissioner Gasper asked how do we give to staff their thoughts regarding what are the make or break issues for them. She said that her sense is that they each have different areas of concern that if they aren't fixed, they won't vote for it. Commissioner Hill said that he can't tell which ones are types of departure from the norm and if it is very problematic or not. He said that the' conditions need to be matched to the Land Development Code. Commissioner Hocutt said that he doesn't think that the responsibility should be put on staff and commit their time and efforts to go through and negotiate each item for the developer, they have the Codes and policy in place. He said that he doesn't want the Commission to tell staff to go negotiate this process because it is the Commission's responsibility and not staff's. Commissioner Gasper asked if it would make sense to have a working session with staff to go over the standards that are being proposed and come forward with the standards they would be willing to live with. Barry LeBaron said that they will be glad to make time available to them. Commissioner Hill asked if it would be difficult to state what the differences are between what the developer is asking for and what the City's standards are. Mr. LeBaron said that he would be glad to summarize them for the Commission. Commissioner Gasper said that she does not know how they will resolve the impasse, because her sense is that the Commission wants to continue working with Mr. Bagwell on this piece of property. Chairman Hart said that he doesn't think that they will fully be able to resolve the issues because not everyone will be delighted with the project one way or another. Commissioner Edwards said that she believes that they need to resolve what the special conditions are first. Commissioner Hocutt asked if they need to resolve the City's engineering standards before they address the citizens' concerns. He said that maybe a plat that IS acceptable to the citizens needs to be accomplished first. Chairman Hart said that the Commission has listened to the citizens when it was R20 and as a PUD-R. Commissioner Edwards said that the changes are not substantial as Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 11 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 the widths and the open space are wider and various things have changed, but it is still pretty much the same layout. She said that one of the sticking point is that the developer wants to include the special conditions and it makes a huge difference monetarily to him and if the Commission can't live with that they need to let him know. Commissioner Hocutt would like to hear from the citizens at this meeting regarding their concerns with the revised plat. Commissioner Gasper said that she thinks they have heard from the citizens at great length and she's not aware, based on the plat, that there are any new issues that could be laid on the table. She said that it seems to her that the issues that need to be addressed are the same ones that were discussed at great length the last time. Commissioner Hollis said that they should not consider tabling the item at this time, but should ask Mr. Bagwell to remove any conditions that he does not consider absolute make or break issues. He said that it should be brought back either as a go or no go and then have the City staff brief the Commission on the differences. Commissioner Hocutt said that he agrees, but feels that they need to get the citizens involved. He said that it may not be a nice meeting but they need to get together to where the snow ball gets rolling down hill and at the bottom are the citizens saying that they have not had an opportunity to speak. He said that the citizens do not need to speak at this meeting, but when the item is discussed again. He said that there are two issues, what happens after the case is tabled as a time should be established when they need to come back. Chairman Hart said that he does not object to further discussion with the citizens, but he agrees with Commissioner Hollis that a list should be made by Mr. Bagwell of the go or no go points and discuss them with staff. Commissioner Gasper said that they should have a working session to discuss with staff where Mr. Bagwell is and they can look at his proposal and see to what extent the Commission can live with it or not. Commissioner Hocutt said that all he is suggesting is that the developer put together a list and give it to the citizens who are opposed. Commissioner Gasper said that once the developer formulates the list and they have a working session with staff to go over the technical impact of those issues. She said that presumably there would be a revised list to come forth to the Commission and at that point it would be appropriate for the citizens to be able to address what is on the table then. Commissioner Hill said that he recognizes that staff's and Mr. Bagwell's time is valuable. He said that in the no and no go list, Mr. Bagwell might try to enlighten the Commission on his reasons for the departure of some of the items from the norms in the City to help them focus on those. Commissioner Wall moved to table the item. Commissioner Gasper seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None Commissioner Gasper moved that the developer be instructed to draw up a go no go list and present it to staff. The staff is then to schedule a work session with the Commission so that they can become more knowledgeable. She said that the item will remain tabled until there is a work session. Commissioner Wall seconded the motion. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 12 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Hocutt said that there needs to be clear communication with the citizens so that they do not have to appear at meetings every two weeks. He said that if at the next meeting, the work session has not taken place, the citizens won't have to spend their Monday nights with the Commission. Chairman Hart called for the vote. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None 3. TABLED ITEM - A Zoning Change requested by Doug Henderson representing Kipp Whitman, Lavaca Trail, LLC, from R40 to PUD-C (planned unit development-commercial) on 6.335 acres located at the southeast corner of Lavaca Trail and Precinct Line Road. Case Z- 00-070 Commissioner Gasper asked if they received any comments from the neighbors regarding the revised plans. Tom Niederauer responded that staff did not receive any additional responses. Commissioner Gasper asked if it was fair to assume that the neighborhood is still opposed to the development of this corner. Commissioner Edwards said that they were just opposed to the kennel and weren't opposed to commercial development. Commissioner Hill asked staff to explain how the zoning change request has changed. Tom Niederauer presented the case to the Commission and told them about the four issues that have changed. He said that the applicant is back to a similar plan to what the Council looked at earlier with the exception of designs and elevations. He said that the eight lot plat, not the zoning exhibit, is the plat from the original submittal. Tom said that staff has disregarded what had gone on before and the land uses are CC-1 and CC-2 with exception for a Special Use Permit for alcohol sale. He said that the lot on the corner is for sale with off premise consumption and the other two lots on Precinct Line Road are for on premise consumption in a restaurant. He said that hose are the only land uses that are different than just straight CC-1 and CC-2 and the kennel has been removed. He said that an extra wide landscape setback on Precinct Line Road is proposed with no parking. He said that a 20' greenbelt is proposed on Lavaca. He said that the design review is different as there are no proposed buildings to evaluate and they recommended in item #5B that requires site plans and building elevations to be reviewed by City Council. He said that the last issue is that normally in a PUD the zoning exhibit is considered a preliminary plat then they go directly to the final plat stage. He said that in this particular case a preliminary plat has not been submitted for consideration with the zoning change. The applicant will be required to submit a preliminary plat with all of the engineering requirements for approval prior to submitting a final plat. Mr. Niederauer said that staff concludes, that it is a speculative zoning change and staff recommends denial because we don't know what is specifically designed for the area. Commissioner Edwards said that they may ask the applicant to not ask for a special use and request that when they have a specific use for the property. Commissioner Gasper said that she was under the impression that had been the practices that the SUP was not granted until there was a for real instance to grant it. Commissioner Edwards said that there are a group of lots in front of Bransford Elementary that an area was granted a SUP and then the property was and will Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 13 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 be divided for appropriate restaurants along Highway 26. She said that this was done to encourage development and it depends on the situation. Tom Niederauer said that a similar SUP was granted along State Highway 121 for restaurant and hotel alcoholic beverage related uses in order to attract business. He said that the properties will still need to be platted and have site plans approved. Commissioner Gasper asked what impact will the development have on the remainder of the undeveloped land adjacent as it is one of the last large tracts of property within the city limits. She wanted to know if this development will either encourage or discourage future development and if it will encourage development, what type? Tom Niederauer said that these parcels are fairly small lots, but there are singular uses for a convenience store on the corner, and two restaurant sites. Barry LeBaron responded that it may hinge on the Commissioner perspective as to whether or not you think this will be a stimulus to new development. Commissioner Gasper asked what is proposed across the street. Commissioner Edwards said that there is a lot more traffic through the area now that Rumford is opened, but she has not seen any thing proposed. Staff said that they are not aware of any firm 'plans. Barry LeBaron said that there is a Thornbury residential subdivision in the area. Commissioner Edwards said that there is some development proposed to the north that may be a Wal Mart. Barry LeBaron said that further north at North Tarrant Parkway and Davis Blvd. there is a proposed Wal Mart Super Center. He said that there is an Eckerd's and a Walgreen's in the location now. Commissioner Edwards moved to remove the item from the table. Commissioner Wall seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Gasper, Edwards, Hocutt, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: None Kipp Whitman was present to represent the case. He said that have amended their request and they have pretty much gone back to the original plan. He said that it was not their intent to import dogs to Colleyville, but out of the blue they were contacted with an attractive offer from the kennel. He said that had it been approved and had they closed on the purchase, it would have given them a lot of leverage to bide their time and pick and chose what kind of uses they would like to sell the property to. He said that now they are back to rezoning and they want to encourage buyers to come to this property. Mr. Whitman said that in regards to granting sups on the unknown, it was done on their property at John McCain and Highway 26 for the intent of bringing a service station to the location. He said that it was also granted to them at L. D. Lockett and Precinct Line in order to attract business and they have done it. He said that they were able to attract a service station and a strip center and a future site for a sit down restaurant. He said that they are asking at this time for approval of the SUP for the potential business they can attract. He said that the attractions goes in the fashion of they have a parcel that is already rezoned, it's already set to go and they won't have to worry about if they'll be approved or sell alcohol at the location. Staff and Council have set the parameters for the development. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 14 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Mr. Whitman said that the reason they wish and desire to be approved for Council to review the potential buyer's plans versus staff is to get it through staff quickly. He said that otherwise it will languish for months. He said that it is historical that it takes time to go through staff because they have a lot of things to do, and rather than giving staff twice the things to do, if they get Council's approval on the design, it can go back. He said that the purpose is to speed development because it has definitely stopped in our city. He said that development has come to a dead halt as everybody is trying to do things and it's a very complicated issue. An idea for a gas station on every corner it will not happen, as this may be the last corner to have one. He said that the rear portion of the property will be developed into offices and they may not provide much of a tax base for the city, unless they are a sales offices. Mr. Whitman said that the convenience store will bring tax revenue especially for the alcoholic beverage sales. Mr. Whitman said that he has been told that he shouldn't talk about alcohol, but he needs to go in with the confidence that we are adults and most drink wine and where do they buy it in the area. He said that we purchase it from either a gas station or the super market. He said that the people in North Richland Hills buy their wine from Colleyville. He said that in reference to the question about what is planned for across the street, North Richland Hills does not want to see commercial in that location but want it on Davis. He said that Precinct Line grows with traffic everyday. Mr. Whitman said that Wal Mart that is coming begins by this corner and then heads towards Davis and his development will be one block from the Wal-Mart. He said that he can't wait for Bill Souder to sell his property as he is tough in business. He said that he needs the Commission's vote for approval, so they can get business started. Mr. Whitman said that he has someone they are talking to but cannot divulge who it is because Colleyville has already turned them down for another location. The retail business they bring in and the office pad sites they can develop will be much more profitable for them in the long run than the three churches who want to build at this location. He said that the idea of a convenience store selling beer and wine, their other location at L. D. Lockett abuts Bear Valley Church and the pastor came before the Commission and said they liked what he is doing and did not oppose the project. He said that their difficulty is marketing as they do not have the assistance of the city and they need to market it themselves. Commissioner Gasper asked Mr. Whitman if he owns the property and if they have solid tenants. Mr. Whitman responded that they do own the property and they have one very serious contender right now and other possible commitments pending on the other one committing. She asked about the office sites and restaurant sites how large would the buildings be going onto those pads. Mr. Whitman said that the buildings in the back may be3,000 to 7,000 feet, but if someone wanted more space, they would combine a couple of the lots. He said that they would like to develop a pond in the back as this will be a drainage issue and will do it at the time of platting. Commissioner Gasper asked how many square feet would be at the service station site. Mr. Whitman responded that it would be 4,500 s.f. She asked if he has done a survey as to how saturated the market is with gas stations. Mr. Whitman said that It depends on the stations, as there are ones with no alcoholic beverage sales, but his convenience store will compete with wine sales. He said that in regards to the stations that closed down on the Central and Harwood corner in Bedford, Chevron had ownership issues and Exxon had tank issues. Commissioner Edwards asked staff if Remington Park would be connecting to Lavaca and increasing the traffic in the area. Staff answered that it would. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 15 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Gasper asked if the service station will have fast food sales. Mr. Whitman said that the group he is talking to have not disclosed that to him. Commissioner Hocutt asked for clarification of the difference and locations of the Special Use Permits. Mr. Whitman said that the SUP for alcoholic beverage sales with off premise consumption is for the lot on the corner associated with the convenience store and Lot 2, facing Precinct Line, is for on premise consumption limited to a restaurant. The multiple offices located on the lots behind will draw customers. Commissioner Edwards said that she realizes that it is speculative but she is willing to support it. Barry LeBaron said that the request that is before the Commission is what they already approved and went to Council, and while it was at Council the kennel came into play, He said that Council recommended that it go back to P&Z. Barry said that now that the kennel is removed, it is being treated as a new application. Commissioner Gasper asked Barry to expand on the issues on the briefing that it is not compatible with the surrounding area. Barry LeBaron said that staff is concerned about the practice of chopping up the larger portions of land for a service station and they don't want to see every corner being a convenience station. He said that if the developer had a firm package, staff would be willing to give up the convenience store. Chairman Hart asked Economic Development Coordinator Mike Soab if the special use permit would enhance quick development of the property. Mr. Soab said that the difference of looking at this as an entire puzzle or as a piece of the puzzle. He said that they should look at the entire vision for Precinct Line Road as they will have many large parcels behind small parcels if they keep carving out small pieces. He said that the vision for Colleyville is not for fast food restaurants and the special use permit is O.k. for sit down restaurants. Chairman Hart asked what is the difference Mr. Whitman's development on the L. D. Lockett site as this is a clone of that site. Mr. Soab responded that it all goes back to vision as to what we expect Precinct Line Road to look like. Commissioner Hill said that it would be great in a utopian world, but the city controls the uses of the property, but now what property owners can do, combine, and sell. He said that he loves churches in the abstract, but they don't produce revenue for the city and people can't hold property indefinitely. He said that is his dilemma as he looks at these types of things. Mr. Soab said that they do make these decisions all of the times to allow speculative ventures go forward and in and of itself the deal is not bad, but in the interest of Colleyville is it the best deal for the city. He said that is the decision that the P&Z and Council will have to make, not staff and himself. Commissioner Wall said in reference to Mr. Soab's comments about hiding large parcels of land, he asked about the potential development of the lots located in the flood plane. Barry LeBaron said that they can fill some areas of the flood plain to reclaim some of the property. He said that some times they put in detention facilities and if designed properly can be an enhancement to the property. Commissioner Edwards said that one of the br~nches to Bear Creek is just to the south. Commissioner Hocutt asked if there is anything in the city that has a convenience store, a restaurant, and office buildings adjacent to it to help him visualize how this project might look. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 16 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Commissioner Gasper said that possibly where the Monet restaurant used to be. Commissioner Edwards said that the corner of Hwy. 26 and Brown Trail has a Mobil, a cleaners, and a Hi-Lo next to it. She said that the mixed use where Redentas Nursery is located is a great look. Barry LeBaron said that if you look at the development sequence of events that often occurs, the convenience stores pick off the best corners first, then the others come along afterwards. He said that he thinks that is a normal progression because they have to get their foothold first, they recognize that, and the dollars involved are such that they're allowed to do that. He said that is one of the things the Commission needs to weigh and ask if that is something we want to see as our long range vision. He said that he can see why it is advantageous to the developer to change this from the current residential zoning to something he can market. He said that if he has commercial zoning in place with special use permits for alcoholic beverage sales either off premise or on premise, he can increase his opportunities to get someone in there. Commissioner Gasper asked Mr. Soab what he would envision if the Commission does not do this as far as a long range development that would be in the best interest of the City and how long will it take for us to get there. Mr. Soab responded that a lot of it is timing of the Wal Mart and it depends on how soon they go in. He said that once Wal Mart develops, the whole area is going to boom and it will probably take 12 to 18 months for that to happen. Commissioner Gasper asked Mr. Soab that if hypothetically they want to wait 18 month, what is likely to happen with the whole area not just this one individual tract. Mike Soab said that if you follow Mayor Souder's line of thinking at the last meeting, he talked about combining tracts into bigger pieces for bigger users. He said that he knows the city has a big box ordinance going through the system now and the Mayor and City Council wants to have major sales tax generators on Precinct Line Road. He said that major does not mean 2,500 or 3,500 s.f. stores that generate a little bit of sales tax, he's talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars. He said that the City is rapidly running out of commercial land for the big boxes and this is a major opportunity for them. He said that he would hate to lose it for a corner. He said that it may not affect it at all. Commissioner Edwards said that theoretically there is still room for that type of development. Mr. Soab said that there is still room on Precinct Line Road for large development. Commissioner Hill said that it is an interesting thing to think about. Commissioner Edwards said that her thinking is that it would be great to have one big development right now, but they are having a hard time getting commercial. She said that she is hoping that if they go ahead, it would be great if lots would combine to make an even bigger development. Commissioner Edwards said that she is willing to take that risk that if might happen, and if not, what they get will be sufficient for what they have there and she is willing to take the risk to wait. Mike Soab agreed that it is a subjective thing. Commissioner Wall asked Mr. Soab to give him an example of a fast food restaurant that needs an on site alcoholic beverage license. Mr. Soab said that Taco Cabana serves alcohol and has a drive thru as well. He said that most sit down restaurants do not have drive thru windows. Commissioner Wall said then there would be no reason to grant a special use permit for on site alcoholic beverage consumption for the zoning to be CC-2. Mr. Soab said that is a separate issue and one other example is Railhead Restaurant has a drive thru and sells alcoholic beverages on the inside. He said that the CC-2 is a separate issue from alcoholic beverage sales. Commissioner Edwards said that if they approve a special use permit, a fast food restaurant could locate on the property and not utilize the permit. Mr. Soab said that was correct. He said that on the Bransford Road area blanket special use permit, he did not believe than anyone is selling Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 17 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 alcoholic beverages, but on Highway 121 it was very advantageous to have it. Commissioner Hocutt asked staff if the Keller ISD still wants a school just north of the area. Mr. LeBaron responded that they were wanting to build an elementary school. Commissioner Gasper what distance is required between a school and an establishment selling alcoholic beverages. He said that is 1,000 feet and that is not an issue at this location. Commissioner Hocutt asked what the projected look is for the landscaping for the corridor. Mr. Whitman said that his set backs are pretty significant as is the voluntary setback on the L. D. Lockett site. He said that it is setback with a 40' building line that includes landscapes to give it a classic look all along Precinct Line in Colleyville. Mr. LeBaron said that Mr. Whitman is proposing a 40' landscape buffer along Precinct Line Road. Mr. Whitman said that in regards to the dream of Big Box uses he said that he gave the Commission a thick packet of what is going on in Wal Mart. He said that it would be lovely to have some big box users like Best Buy, but they won't come because they are already going into Grapevine. He pointed out of the map possible locations and said that he doesn't see anything happening and he doesn't see anybody knocking down doors to come to Colleyville. He said that this is an irregular piece of property he is working with and he would love to work with Mayor Sauder to do something, but they can't get a consensus of prices to cross over and market. He said that there is a need for something to develop and he is the only developer on Precinct Line doing anything. He said that he needs a drive thru and it won't impact anything behind the site. He said that if he is going to build offices behind the commercial, he surely doesn't want to be looking into the back end of a gas station. He said that if he sells the corner, it will not have a normal look at the back, because it would be too difficult to sell the balance of the land. Mr. Whitman said that he wants to make the project as neat as he can. Commissioner Hocutt moved to suspend the rules and open the public hearing. Commissioner Edwards seconded the motion. The vote being: Ayes: Edwards, Hocutt Noes: Gasper, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart The motion did not pass. Chairman Hart said that they have had a pretty significant length of time to discuss the case. Commissioner Edwards moved to recommend approval the zoning change with the requested special use permit. Commissioner Hill seconded the motion. Commissioner Hocutt said that he is concerned because we already have property on L. D. Lockett basically zoned the same way. He said that we have an opportunity to look at the actual versus a projected in terms as to what real revenues the city will reap from sales from restaurants and alcoholic beverages in a convenience store that has not yet been developed. He said that we get a sense of emergency that it has to be done now because there is a perspective buyer and the perspective buyer won't disclose who it is because they've been turned down in the past. He said that this is an opportunity to look at an actual versus projected. Commissioner Edwards said that it depends on how soon the actual will take place. Commissioner Hocutt said that if the actual is not going to take place pretty soon, then why should they zone something else for the Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 18 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 same purpose. Chairman Hart said that Mr. Whitman is the owner of the land and he has brought the request before them. Commissioner Hocutt said that he is thinking about the overall vision for Colleyville in terms of what they want there in the Western corridor. Commissioner Gasper said that since Mr. Whitman owns property she has a strong bias and favor for owners being able to do what they would like to do with their own property absence some compelling public interest. She said that she for one does not see the compelling public interest. Commissioner Hill said that he is afraid that they will see a non tax producing property would go there like a church since it seems to be church row already and he not getting down on churches. He said that at some point in time a property owner who is occurring a debt load will need to do something with the property. He said that he sees that the owner has been incurring debt service for several months and you can't do that indefinitely. He said that his sense is that if there were a reasonably workable plan to couple with another developer or two to create a larger tract for a big box, Mr. Whitman being a business man would want to entertain it. Commissioner Wall said that Mr. Whitman has made it known to the Commission that this is going to be a quality development and he takes the man at his word. Commissioner Gasper said that there are provisions like a 35 point architectural design score on all buildings and the landscaping buffers, so the city ,does have a fair amount of protection that it will be quality. Chairman Hart called for the vote. The vote being:. Ayes: Gasper Edwards, Hollis, Wall, Hill, Hart Noes: Hocutt [NOTE: The Commission took a five minute recess.] 4. Discussion and Consideration of Planning and Zoning Commission Rules of Procedure. Barry LeBaron said that they found the rules were adopted in 1987. He said that they offer a procedural mechanism for how to conduct meetings. Barry said that he scanned them and put them on a word processor. He did some wordsmithing to meet how the meetings have been conducted for the last two years and took out a lot of language that talks about plat submittal because they're a part of the Land Development Code. He said that the old procedures said that the Commission would elect a secretary and he eliminated that language. He said that normally they elect a Chairman and a Vice Chairman because they have to have someone to sign the plats and someone to take over in absence of the Chairman. He said that as far as the secretary, there is no function other than a recording secretary and they would just appoint that position because Jan Levy has been doing that for the past several years and they can reappoint her. He said that basically he just left the procedures to conduct a meeting. Commissioner Gasper said that she took Barry's good work and then did some tweaking which left the work illegible. She said that she retyped the rules and sent it by email to the Commissioner and some did not get it. Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 19 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 Chairman Hart said that Commissioner Gasper's version of item #1 says that the Chairman shall prepare the agenda for all meetings and he questioned that. She responded that presumably the staff will actually do that but it is the Chairman's responsibility to ensure that there is an agenda and it meets with the Chairman's approval. Commissioner Edwards asked if it wouldn't be more correct to assign that duty to the recording secretary since Jan Levy already does that. Commissioner Hocutt said that he believed that item #1 means not that the Chairman prepares the agenda but makes sure that the agenda is administered for the meeting. Commissioner Gasper said that it is not that the Chairman prepare in the sense of technically do it, as that is covered else wear, but it means that staff does the technical preparation as has been done in the past. Chairman Hart said that staff's version really says what the duties of the chairman are. Commissioner Gasper said that if he wants to strike the "prepare the agenda for all meetings" she does not see any problem with that. She said that the "shall preside at all meetings covered all of the rest of the duties in the original. Commissioner Hill said that the number one thing that the chairman would do and never has had to do it is to maintain order if that is necessary to do and he recommends to leave that phrase in. Commissioner Edwards asked where were the regulations for limiting time for speakers. Commissioner Gasper answered that the limiting time is listed under Hearings, Section B, page 2. Edwards asked if we could take the proposals home to look at them and ask staff to put them on the agenda first thing next time to have a change to discuss them at the last meeting. Barry LeBaron said that one of the things staff could do is take the differences and incorporate them into the strike through and bold version because the way they will have to deal with the changes is to amend the existing rules of procedures. He said that it would be nice to know what the additions and deletions are. Commissioner Gasper said that could simply be accomplished by strike everything after "and substitute". She said that they would not need to go through them word by word, but they clearly need to know what the final version is. Barry LeBaron said that they could repeal the original rules and adopt the new rules and that would be acceptable. Commissioner Edwards said that she believes that Commissioner Gasper's version has many good things in it, but she cannot compare them in just a few minutes. Commissioner Edwards asked if the rules of procedure would be discussed and adopted as the first item at the next meeting, could they immediately use the time limits? Barry LeBaron said that the way they are worded is when they are adopted, they would go into effect at the next meeting. Commissioner Gasper said that they could suspend the rules at their next meeting and set the guidelines for time limits. Commissioner Hocutt said that the problem with considering the item at the beginning of the next meet would be that it may take a long time and he wouldn't want the citizens to sit through the discussion if they didn't want to. Commissioner Gasper said that she would recommend that the discussion take place at the end of the meeting because it is business related to the Commission and if citizens want to hear, that would be fine. 5. Citizens' comments regarding items not on the agenda: Former Mayor Ed Baker, 6106 Highland Hills Drive, said that he was not here to talk about what he was specifically instructed to talk about. He congratulated everyone sitting on the Commission. He said that he has never attended two meetings in a row with the Commission like he as for the last five years. He said that he wanted to go over two or three things with the Commission as he believes they are right on target. One of the major problems that he and the Council perceived Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9, 2000 Page 20 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 and cured in many ways in 1995 -1997, was the developer problem. He said that they cured the problem by meeting with the developers and staff. He said that the critical issue with staff was making sure they had timelines to follow and they were adhered to and the same way with the developers. Mayor Baker said that the Commission heard from David Bagwell this evening and also Kipp Whitman that there is frustration to be had. He said that this is not Highland Park, Texas regardless of what some people like to think it is. He said that this is Colleyville, Texas and we need revenue stream and the motion that was made for a meeting with the developer and the staff is an excellent idea. He said that he believes that everyone can learn from this procedure as both sides, including the citizens, the Commission, and the developer. Former Mayor Baker said that he believes that this could be a trend oil as they have had some turmoil for the last six months or so that has created some massive interaction problems and we need a trendsetter to come about. He said that he watched this committee and he applauds them for working well, they do their homework and it makes him feel good as a citizen and happy that they are doing what they are charged to do. He said that the city is a small business, a $15 million business that is run by a lot of volunteers and paid staff. He said that when he was Mayor, they instituted a program called the Mayor's Hot Line and it was an open line to make sure that the people including the developers or anyone else could call in if they had a problem. He said that it is amazing how it worked. He said that he took two years off from his business to be Mayor and he would take the calls and walk over to the chief of engineering or whatever department it was related to. He said that he would talk to them about what would appear to be an issue problem and ask them how they were going to solve it. Former Mayor Baker said that he would then go to the City Manager and tell him what he had done. He said that he had 32 complaints the first month and they trickled down to where he was getting one call a week. He said that he recommended that everybody take a passion that these are our customers when they walk through ttle door and we should be treating people like they are our customers when they're paying the water bill or whatever else they are doing. He said that the City Manager and he disagreed vehemently about that. He said that the City Manager said that you can't run a small city like a small business, but he told him that he had been doing it for 30 years and he has been fortunate to run some $300 million business, but it is all the same. He said that people like to be treated nice. Mayor Baker said that David Bagwell is a quality developer, can be argumentative, wants his own way, and it is cash driven, and an economic issue, and the Commission handled it well. He challenged the Commission that with all of the brain power they have, they should come up with something that would be a trendsetter in the city for awhile. He said that the city is not in good stead with the developers right now, they think that we are an aloof group at the city and won't work with them. He said that is not true and the Commission asked the types of intelligent questions to Mr. Bagwell and he did not field those questions very well. He said that he thinks they need to look at how we can interact better with the citizens and challenged Chairman Hart to put some timelines on those things as they can get out of hand. He said that he came to talk about something else, but felt so strongly about this issue, and saw how the Commission act as professionals, and felt that he need to stay to give them a "Thank You" from him as an individual and as a citizen of our city. Chairman Hart thanked Former Mayor Baker for all he has done for the city and for addressing the Commission tonight. Kipp Whitman, concurred with former Mayor Baker, and said that he is surprised because Mr. Hocutt mentioned that we should bring people together and everything else. He said that he thinks P&Z ought to be on the web site for Colleyville the same as the Council agenda. He said that In response to the turn around time in submitting plans or bringing things to the city, it should Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 21 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 be a 3 - 4 week turn around like it used to be. He said that the development that is going on at L. D. Lockett took 4 months to go through staff. He said that it was already approved and it was four months to get the plans through and he said that he applauds the Commissioners diligence to go through everything to deliver to council with intelligent recommendations. Mr. Whitman said that it has gone so askew that they would like to bring more people to Colleyville,. He said that he would like to be able to say and be proud that he has Colleyville property to offer, rather than people saying they want something somewhere else because they don't want to go through that nightmare. He said that they get a lot of that Albert Lujan, 1713 Gatehouse Court, said that he stayed to talk about drainage on Hall Johnson. He said that the city is currently doing construction and they had on two occasions that the main line and it ended up in his front yard. He asked the Commission what he could do if there is a new development across the street from him. He said that he doesn't believe that the city has planned for any development with this many residents with the drainage that is currently in place. He said that he has been talking with Chris Steubing and they had two breaks this week and a lot of it ended up on his front yard. He said that the City has not contacted him one time to determine what they are going to do to clean it up or make sure it won't happen again. He said that he understands they are going to put in some French drains in the drive to the entrance of the their subdivision, but it won't handle the drainage that is coming down from Bluebonnet Hills. Commission Edwards said that since they can't really answer the problem, they recommended that he stays until the meeting is over and talk to staff. Mr. Lujan said that what he wants at this time is for the Commission to consider the new development that is being proposed today at the north side of Hall Johnson, because the drainage alone will not handle new residents. He said that he doesn't believe that the city ever planned to have new residents on Bluebonnet Hills Commissioner Gasper asked Mr. Lujan if she were hearing him say that the current drainage is presently inadequate? He said, "Absolutely, Absolutely." He said that the concrete for Hall Johnson is currently there. Commissioner Hocutt asked if Mr. Lujan was talking about actual runoff or actual infrastructure not being able to handle it. He said that the runoff is not being handled as they are below Hall Johnson and it all comes in their direction and to their yard. He said that the city can't take care of it because it's private property and therefore the burden is on him to take care of it. Mr. LeBaron said that Mr. Lujan believes that the Commission is the City Council. Mr. Lujan responded that the Commission can plan not to have another development where the city drainage is not adequate and he applauds the fact that they tabled the proposal to make sure that that they will make a prudent decision as to what they would do with it. He asked them to not approve something that the city has not planned for a long term development in that area.. Ruth Heidle, 1712 Gatehouse Court, said that Albert is absolutely right and he wasn't there at the worst of the flooding, but she was. She said that she has pictures and as soon as the Commission would want to see what was going on in their neighborhood this last week they will show it. She said that there were two breaks in the water line that the City never bothered to clean up after the first one other than to move the soil around to different places in the cul-de-sac. She said that the second break was a major break with water coming up half way up their driveway and the ironic thing was Mr. Bagwell stood in her driveway late Saturday afternoon and said, "You mean to tell me the water was way up here? I can see this clay here." She said that the cover that sits on top of the water meter out front got lifted up and started floating away and that is not always as bad as it is. Ruth said that the city was out there all day trying to clean it up Planning & Zoning Commission Minutes - October 9,2000 Page 22 of 22 - APPROVED ON 10/23/00 and they had to call them back the next day and they tried to clean up some of the mess. She said that they didn't finish it and told the neighbors across the street that they were going to get more water to hose down the driveway and they disappeared as it was the end of the day. She said that they came back today and shoveled out two driveways and left all of the rest the way it was. She said that she is tired of sweeping mud out of her garage every time there is a significant amount of water coming down through the cul-de-sac because of stuff that is going on across the street. She said that so far there no pavement on their road, but it is all soil that should be absorbing the water and she dreads thinking about what will happen when Hall Johnson is paved all the way across. She said that Albert is absolutely right and they have no idea what they have been living through in the last 3 % months now. She said that the last week has been horrendous as they've broken gas mains, broken the water main, the phone have been out once a day for the last week and % , the t.v. cable people are out there constantly repairing and they now have wires hanging over the fence so they don't have to go into the yards so after at 3:00 a.m. Ruth said that this is a major disruption to their lives and not the least of such is infrastructure problems and the drainage problems are the biggest ones. She asked if there was anything the Commission could do, they would really appreciate it, but they have to understand that when they come into meetings, they are very excitable because there nerves are raw from what they are going through. She said that if it doesn't get fixed, it's not going to get any better when they put a subdivision across the road where the City never ever planned to have one. She said that Mr. Bagwell knows this, he's standing there and watching, and saying how horrible it is and yet he's going to go right ahead with his plan. Ruth said that she does commend Commissioners Gasper and Edwards for doing a wonderful job and the rest of them for asking a lot of the right questions. She said that she has waited a long time to say this that there is one lady here who really does understand who her customers are and that's Jan Levy. She said, "Thank you so much, Jan." (Chairman Hart said that I should add that comment to the minutes.) 6. Staff comments, reports and discussion items: Chairman Hart asked staff about the upcoming zoning change by Raman Chandler. Staff explained what kind of residential zoning was being requested. 7. Commissioners' comments and reports: There were none. ADJOURNMENT: Commissioner Gasper moved to adjourn the meeting at 10:00 p.m. Commissioner Edwards seconded the motion. The motion passed by acclamation. Respectfully Submitted, J~ Planning & Zoning Assistant Approved on: October 23, 2000 as submitted. NOTE: As a matter of public record, an audio recording of the above Planning and Zoning Commission meeting is available upon request.